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elrhiarhodanAnd we are just one episode shy of the half-way point for the entire third season. Time DOES fly, doesn't it?
Starting this week, I am going to do the Dish a little differently. Rather than post a series of random squees, which are not really useful, I'm going to try to write something a little more cogent about what I liked, what I didn't like, what worked, what didn't work and where I think the story is going.
I also need to make an announcement. I am firmly in Camp Sara. I like the character, I like how she has progressed from antagonist to compatriot. I don't know if I completely buy the Neal/Sara chemistry, but they are sexy people doing sexy things together, which makes me happy. Hell, yeah - I'd rather Neal was doing sexy things with Peter and Elizabeth, but I can't have everything.
That being said, criticism of the character's actions or non-actions is always welcome, but if you want to tell me how much you hate Sara Ellis, you don't find her at all interesting/attractive/intelligent and that she contributes nothing to the show, please just don't. There are many other fans who feel as you do and welcome such contributions. I don't want to be made to feel I have to defend my preferences on my own journal.
And here we go...see you on the other side.
What I Love:
Porn, really? Moz panicking is adorable, so is jealous Moz, and Moz on the verge of giving the whole treasure secret away.
I do like that Sara doesn't hesitate to call him on the passports - but she calls them excellent forgeries? I thought they were supposed to be the real deal, with farmed identities.
Having the old main title back is a pleasure. No more soap opera music!
Mozzie just grabbing the first thing handy - the Watergate transcript. And then grabbing the candy, Yes, Mr. Havisham, you are adorable. Evil, but adorable.
I love that Peter called Neal and Sara on their shopping spree.
The Vulture is a woman - and Moz is instantly infatuated.
Sali = Salieri / Mozzie = Mozart - is Moz going to get lucky, finally? Yes he did! I do like that pairing. Maybe she gives Moz a reason to stay. (And apparently not).
What I don't like:
Neal is lying to Sara - and saying that Peter wouldn't be surprised that he has the passports. This breaks my heart.
I don't like how he's trying to tempt Sara - to bring her along. Yes, it was romantic, but it is just wrong.
What Works:
The pinstriped suit and slicked back hair. Yes - I like that look on Neal. Dunno why, it should be sleazy, but it isn't.
I love that El has Mozzie on speed dial. And that they chat regularly.
What Doesn't Work:
The way Mozzie gets in touch with The Vulture - seems a little too pat.
Peter's "Neal in Prison" joke. Sorry - it just doesn't work for me.
I don't like that Neal called Mozzie and Sali misfits
And I don't know how I feel about Sara finding out. I really don't.
As always, respectful thinky and not so thinky thoughts are most welcome. Have at it, folks!
Starting this week, I am going to do the Dish a little differently. Rather than post a series of random squees, which are not really useful, I'm going to try to write something a little more cogent about what I liked, what I didn't like, what worked, what didn't work and where I think the story is going.
I also need to make an announcement. I am firmly in Camp Sara. I like the character, I like how she has progressed from antagonist to compatriot. I don't know if I completely buy the Neal/Sara chemistry, but they are sexy people doing sexy things together, which makes me happy. Hell, yeah - I'd rather Neal was doing sexy things with Peter and Elizabeth, but I can't have everything.
That being said, criticism of the character's actions or non-actions is always welcome, but if you want to tell me how much you hate Sara Ellis, you don't find her at all interesting/attractive/intelligent and that she contributes nothing to the show, please just don't. There are many other fans who feel as you do and welcome such contributions. I don't want to be made to feel I have to defend my preferences on my own journal.
And here we go...see you on the other side.
What I Love:
Porn, really? Moz panicking is adorable, so is jealous Moz, and Moz on the verge of giving the whole treasure secret away.
I do like that Sara doesn't hesitate to call him on the passports - but she calls them excellent forgeries? I thought they were supposed to be the real deal, with farmed identities.
Having the old main title back is a pleasure. No more soap opera music!
Mozzie just grabbing the first thing handy - the Watergate transcript. And then grabbing the candy, Yes, Mr. Havisham, you are adorable. Evil, but adorable.
I love that Peter called Neal and Sara on their shopping spree.
The Vulture is a woman - and Moz is instantly infatuated.
Sali = Salieri / Mozzie = Mozart - is Moz going to get lucky, finally? Yes he did! I do like that pairing. Maybe she gives Moz a reason to stay. (And apparently not).
What I don't like:
Neal is lying to Sara - and saying that Peter wouldn't be surprised that he has the passports. This breaks my heart.
I don't like how he's trying to tempt Sara - to bring her along. Yes, it was romantic, but it is just wrong.
What Works:
The pinstriped suit and slicked back hair. Yes - I like that look on Neal. Dunno why, it should be sleazy, but it isn't.
I love that El has Mozzie on speed dial. And that they chat regularly.
What Doesn't Work:
The way Mozzie gets in touch with The Vulture - seems a little too pat.
Peter's "Neal in Prison" joke. Sorry - it just doesn't work for me.
I don't like that Neal called Mozzie and Sali misfits
And I don't know how I feel about Sara finding out. I really don't.
As always, respectful thinky and not so thinky thoughts are most welcome. Have at it, folks!
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no subject
Date: 2011-07-20 02:12 am (UTC)Right now my overriding thought is I want to throttle Mozzie. He needs a cluex4 upside the head!
no subject
Date: 2011-07-20 02:19 am (UTC)I liked Peter's Dad routine. The teasing, the angry "you are coming with me", and I agree that the prison joke is getting very old.
Jeff made an interesting tweet that the Flatron Building final scene was meant to symbolize the wedge between "our two heroes". Which two he didn't say.
My first thoughts on Sara finding out: Neal is really sloppy for such an accomplish conman. I wanted Neal to make the decision himself not to be forced into a corner by Sara (or anyone) finding the passport or the treasure. For his own growth he needed to do it himself. So now they will break-up (for awhile, I guess) and Neal will have more to think out (it just seems like he needed to do it himself not be forced into it).
I thought Matt did an amazing job with the discussion of the hotel room both with Sara and then finding out Peter bluffed him into leaving someplace where he was happy.
Finally, Dauphnir, according to Jeff Eastin was in Norse myth Draupnir was a gold ring gifted to Odin which could multiply endlessly, thus granting the bearer unlimited wealth.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-20 03:04 pm (UTC)In retrospect, this ep sort of worked for me - but left me feeling more like I did after the first time I saw On Guard than say, the end of Veiled Threat or Dentist of Detroit.
There was a definite streak of meanness in Peter this week - and that's not nothing new. He tends to behave like a 7 year old boy when it comes to Neal and Sara. Yeah, he likes them together, but the teasing is sort of nasty after so many episodes.
Matt did hit the high notes when he talked about his "golden age" - even his sorrow about being bluffed out of it. And as much as that last scene upset me, it did reinforce how much smarter Peter is than Neal.
Now that I come to think about it - maybe that's why Neal's so willing to fall in with Mozzie's plans now. He thinks he'll find a paradise that no one can force him out of.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-20 02:30 am (UTC)I loved Mozzie and Sali, and I'd love to see Neal in nothing but that gorgeous tie.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-20 03:07 pm (UTC)The case of the week had about as much credibility as Vital Signs, and was as much fun (meaning it was a lot of fun).
It doesn't surprise me that Sara snooped - she's an investigator, and frankly, Mozzie all but erected a big neon sign that said "LOOK HERE FOR SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITY" when they started plotting the shopping spree.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-20 02:52 am (UTC)I still don't understand Sara.
Mozzie was a jackass tonight. I am annoyed at how rude he was to Peter, but I think that's him just trying to break ties with someone whom he seems to reluctantly care about, and also, I think he's doing his best to drive a wedge between Neal and Peter by showing Neal how stifling Peter's world can be.
I don't mind Peter's joke about Neal, because Neal broke a ton of laws. He's always putting Peter's job on the line, or his own life, and he deserves those little digs that also serve as reminders to Neal that this isn't a game. He screws up, he's back in prison, and tonight's escapades were especially ill-advised and stupid.
Neal is still conning everyone...including himself. I like that, but I think once again the writers are allowing this to develop too slowly. We should have seen a lot more of Neal's conflict before this.
I do like that Sara doesn't hesitate to call him on the passports - but she calls them excellent forgeries? I thought they were supposed to be the real deal, with farmed identities.
I think she assumed they were forgeries since it has Neal's new fake name and his picture. Also, I didn't care for her calling Neal on them after she had just demanded that he respect her boundaries. It's one of my biggest pet peeves with her character. (I read your rules. I don't think this violates them).
Ummmm things I liked:
Mozzie getting laid. Even though I wish the writers would stop putting so much sexy times on this show (I'm here to watch Peter and Neal, not romance).
Er...I like Peter? And Neal? I didn't even like Elizabeth in this episode that much. Not one of my favorite episodes, to be sure.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-20 03:14 pm (UTC)You're right about the passports - of course Sara would assume they are forgeries. You do make a valid criticism of Sara not respecting Neal's boundaries - she did dig around in that hidden compartment. It didn't surprise me - she is an investigator - and one who admits that she frequently skirts the law to get her client's property back. As Neal's called her, a White Collar Bounty Hunter.
There were good elements to this episode, but I was left feeling like I did when I first watched On Guard. A little sick to my stomach.
Still, a solid B+ effort for a new staff writer.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-20 03:59 pm (UTC)Well, not only that, but again, my concern is with his treatment of Peter as well. Peter has been pretty damn good to Mozzie, and all he gets in thanks are rude criticisms and wild accusations of wrong-doing by Mozzie all the time.
You're right about the passports - of course Sara would assume they are forgeries. You do make a valid criticism of Sara not respecting Neal's boundaries - she did dig around in that hidden compartment.
Sara also looked through folders on Neal's desk in "Under the Radar", which annoys me more. That's his job; she has no business going through any of that, investigator or not. :/
We may not agree on that, I realize, but I find this one of the traits that drives me away from Sara. :/
Anyway, with regards to Neal and Mozzie, and Sara and Neal, and Peter and Neal....
I wish the writers would let Neal grow up a little. I don't like these attempts to push Neal's decisions off on other people. Neal HAS to make a decision for himself some day, without anyone forcing him to pick a 'side'.
Personally, I'm on Neal's side. It's not what Peter wants or what Mozzie wants or what Sara wants. Or Elizabeth or Hughes or Alex. It's gotta be something Neal wants.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-20 09:20 pm (UTC)Sorry, but this cracks me up every time. To me the sequence looked like a filler because they didn't want her just twiddling her thumbs or playing with her phone, and it was a good way to get them talking about the sub. A bit like the fruit bowls all over the place. That's all I ever saw in that scene, a metaphorical fruit bowl. I don't think they were trying to show a character trait. Of course, this backfired spectacularly...
no subject
Date: 2011-07-20 09:05 pm (UTC)There is a part of me that wants to watch the ep and a part of me that wants to erase it off my DVR and hide under the covers. Ok, that last part (the covers) is because I don't feel good, but still!
But I want to know more about the place where Neal was happy or whatever that was. I caught the part where Peter told him he was bluffing and that Neal realizes he didn't have to run. I want to understand the bits and pieces I'm reading from the comments. So, I guess I will wade through the ep and take something for my stomach after watching it again!
no subject
Date: 2011-07-20 02:54 am (UTC)I won't go on a Sara hate-fest, but I will say that for me, she doesn't work with Neal. I said it in the reaction post, Neal needs a June. Just like Peter NEEDS an El, Neal needs a June (cause this isn't Showtime and therefore I won't be getting an OT3 lol) I think Sara is a bit like Peter in that she is more invested in who she wants Neal to be or believes Neal CAN be than the person Neal actually IS right now. I'm not sure how I feel about her on her own as a character,(though I wish she'd owned her snooping about the passports instead of trying to play it off like he left it out in plain view on the kitchen table or something. She snooped, own it. Besides,he'd have TOTALLY snooped in her spot lol) but I know I think there are too many fundamental differences for me to ship a Neal/Sara pairing.
I honestly think June is the only person in Neal's life that isn't putting Neal in the box of who she wants/expects him to be and is just letting him be himself-flaws and all. I think she's the only person NOT pushing an agenda on him...I really hope he confides in her and gets some unbiased support and some breathing room to figure out what HE wants-for good or ill, I would like to see him make his decision based on who HE wants to be and not who he's told he should be/is supposed to be.
I KNEW treasure cam was going to be an epically bad idea. But I thought it would be Peter that got a glimpse of the treasure. But this makes sense given a couple of casting related spoilers I've read.
Mozzie got a girl! I was kinda bummed he burned the number but like Neal said he has perfect recall so maybe its a moot point. I kinda want to see Boyfriend!Mozzie.
LOL @ Diana. Poor girl keeps getting traumatized. First it was whatever Selena whispered to Peter and now its Mozzie's morning after. She's going to need teh therapy at the end of this season :P
Small quibbles~ Not enough El. Not nearly enough El, June or Jones. I kind of want a Jones epi. And if we never get another Neal in prison joke, I'll be happy.
And was it me or was the bad guy like totally unimportant? It kind of felt like the entire case was a throw away this epi. This sort of felt like filler for upcoming epi's tbh.
And thank sweet baby cheesus that the old title sequence is back LOL.
And Neal's suit/look at the beginning of the epi. I think I fangirl'd so hard I broke something :)
no subject
Date: 2011-07-20 03:21 pm (UTC)Which may explain why Neal was so willing to agree with Moz about leaving now, rather than staying and waiting out his work-release. He's pissed at Peter, feels that he can't rely on him or trust him, that their relationship is breaking apart (not recognizing that it's mostly his fault, of course), and so he feels he has no reason to stay.
Good things about the ep - Neal's suit/look in the beginning. It definitely broke something in me.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-20 04:06 pm (UTC)HELLO!!!!! I just wrote about this several times yesterday, and I just mentioned it again above!!! This is the absolute truth! -hugs you-
no subject
Date: 2011-07-21 09:00 am (UTC)1. Accepts him like he is, the good and the bad sides.
2. Would caution him at the right times, but not preach to him or restrain him.
3. Would love him even if he screwes up and ends up in prison again.
4. Understands his motivations.
5. Is self sufficient and smart enough to pin him down when he tries to pull one over her.
Naturally, if Neal really were in love, he would try to be honest in the first place and just revert back into his old habits from time to time, he wouldn't allow her to get involved in his heist so easily, because he would want to protect her, and he would be compelled to do nice things for her with her having to remind him to do it.
Never mind that a mature relationship needs a fondation of trust, although admittingly, Neal will never be totally truthful.
I really don't get why everyone things that he needs a girl who would share his lifestyle. Elizabeth isn't an FBI-Agent, she is much more sophisticated than Peter and she certainly isn't an attachement to him. Nevertheless they work. Why can't Neal find a girl who has her own, not law inforcement related career, but who is able to understand him and give him the right advice from time to time? If he gets a girl-friend, it should be a romance, not something based largely on sex, and certainly not someone who tags along with him all the time. He needs someone who brings the best out of him.
With Sara he has become more insuffarable every week. He at least spared a moment about the original owners of the money and the disappointed sales clerks, Sara didn't. She didn't even ask what the full plan was before the shopping spree. So far she has:
1. Snooped in his files, his secret safe and his computer (while reading him the riot act about moving a box)
2. Forced him into a discussion about their relationship in front of his co-workers (indiscret anyone?).
3. Helped him in three different cons, not knowing what was on stake during one of them, and egging him on in during the other two. And I really don't get why she considers robbing a bank as a line she can cross and go back without consequences, if they had been caught it would have been bad enough for her, but Neal could have ended up in prison forever for this stunt.
4. Given him a lot of bad advice (I'm still trying to erase fawn killing Neal out of my mind).
Okay, that got longer than I intended and a little bit ranty...sorry. I just think that if Neal has to be with someone, it should be someone who brings the best out of him, not the worst. At the moment I don't like Neal at all. And I'm not sure if the writers are able to recover his character.
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Date: 2011-07-21 01:22 pm (UTC)While I'm not a Sara-hater, I'm not the Sara-lover I once was. I can't put a finger on what exactly it is that bothers me about her character, but if she went away, I wouldn't cry.
But I do love your first list. I think that is a perfect explaination of the type of woman that Neal needs. Yeah, he really needs Elizabeth, but as has been said before, this ain't Showtime or Cinemax, so we ain't getting OT3! LOL
I'm not going to get into your second list, not because I agree or disagree with it, but because I'd have to go back and research what you are saying.
I can understand your "irritation" with Neal's character. I want to take a cluex4 to him myself! I've been pretty harsh with JE and the writers about the tone of Season 3. I'm still willing it give them time to fix their craziness, and I hope they will. Although the increase in ratings will probably only feed their need to keep things the way they are versus letting Neal grow. I'll probably keep watching until the end, since I'm totally in love with MB & TDK. But I rarely hold out hope for sane writers anymore. I'm too jaded by bad television for my own good! :-)
no subject
Date: 2011-07-21 02:31 pm (UTC)And just for the record: Sara as an antagonist in "In the red" was great! I could have loved her as an occasional antagonist. I could have lived with her as a guest star. It's the girl friend/regualar combination I hate. Not the actress and not necessarily the whole character. Although I think that with every reboot they made it worse. Which I don't get because normally the writers are really good with female characters.
The focus of the show has shifted. They used to tell stories, not just the bromance between Neal and Peter, but also stories about the victims or the criminals in their cases. Why do they want to do everything at once? And the thing with Neal's father is still dangling in the air. I'm all for establishing such things early, but it looks like they intend to tackle the issue not before the fourth season.
I am somewhat hopeful for the next three episodes, because I think things will finally come to a heat. But I really don't know how long I will hang on Most of the people I started to watch with have stopped already. The ratings might be stable, but the original fanbase is slowly crumpling, and that's just sad.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-20 03:04 am (UTC)I think they've been pretty heavy-handed in planting Sara on the edgy-but-not-criminal line, which is fine - but it seems to be showcasing Neal continuing to be bad, and wanting to take her with him! I nearly choked tonight when he tried to offer her a fortune. That's exactly what he did with Kate, which makes it apparent that he's learned nothing and changed even less. Anyways, this is getting long, but bottom line is that I'd prefer to see him with people that make him better (read: Peter and El) than those who make him worse. I think this is more of a writer issue than a Sara issue, though, and definitely not the fault of Hilarie Burton.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-20 04:22 am (UTC)All in all, I liked this episode. Having Neal realize how much Sara means to him was pretty sad, though, especially because she'll probably be breaking up with him next week. But at least Mozzie got some love!
no subject
Date: 2011-07-20 06:04 am (UTC)But a part of me is ok with the joke, if only because it's one of the things that proves that Peter is a good man but not unattainable--yes, he's a mensch, but he's not perfect. His brand of mensch-ness isn't out of reach, if that makes sense!
no subject
Date: 2011-07-20 07:37 am (UTC)Mostly I REALLY liked this episode. Including Peter's line ("I think I have a partner with expensive tastes") lol
Actually I LOVE the Sally character, she's a super talented hacker who's like a combination of Moz and Alex. She may be my favorite 1-episode female character so far. I admit that my love was increased by the fact that the actor who plays here was Sarah Connor on the Terminator Tv show, which made me think about Terminator/WC crossovers, with ppl being scared of Sarah's badassery and Moz being all "I told you there were scary secrets!" and Peter bending rules to help them.
I thought the Peter-Mozzie moments were pretty funny. But even funnier: Moz pretending that he was watching porn!! And in his own way, he was.
Loved June - was interested to find that although June is tough she is NOT about tough love - that's not surprising, but it's an interesting contrast to how Peter loves Neal - and gives Sara two ways to think about Neal. Though, as much as I think they are trying to show her as "strong" for knowing clearly what she believes in, I think it would be more interesting if she actually did find that living in a gray area DID push her buttons so that she was tempted to be more like Neal - that way it's about her own morals/values/choices, just like Neal has a journey to take in terms of his own choices. Ironically, by making Sara clear on her beliefs, it just means she isn't going on an interesting journey internally, instead the character becomes all. about. Neal.
Okay, I admit that this opinion is partly based on my annoyance that she has played the "sexy distraction" last ep and the "lavishly rich woman who's all about the clothes" for this one. Though the fake fur was a nice touch. And the fact that 2 previous eps have referred to her as a Barbie.... and the fact that her role is in many ways a stereotypical woman-as-love-interest role (which I do NOT get from El's characterization btw). It reminds me of when the writers decide that Diana will be a model or prostitute and then they seem to be like "is that sexist?" and then they throw in a meta line joking about how the gender implications are not perfect, like that makes it all good. I'm not super upset about it lol - WC still does female characters better than a vast majority of shows - but I do think they could write her a little better.
Lol I wrote so much, sorry. havent watched in real time in a while and had lots of thoughts.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-21 09:09 am (UTC)Best scene: When Peter phoned Mozzie and Neal realized what was going on. His face was priceless!
Sally is the one reason I loved this ep more than the last two. Actually, I was pretty from the part Peter pulled Neal out of his apartment to put him under close surveillance (well, that is something I actually would love to read a (gen) story about - did Peter force Neal to stay overnight to make sure that he wouldn't pull anything else?) up the the arrest of the culprit. Peter being a jerk inbetween withstanding, this part at least felt like the show I used to love.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-21 11:35 pm (UTC)Peter's Neal/Sarah-"joke" that sort of worked:
"I remember when El moved in" - "This is only temporary" - "So was Elizabeth"...
Which is kind of cute, in my book and to ME goes to show that Peter LIKES "domestic" Neal and wants to see him experience the sort of relationship he has with his wife. I didn't get the "nasty" vibes from that bit.
"Send out the handsome one" - go Moz! :D
And then some annoying bits where I wonder if the writers have actually LOOKED at what they're writing - "I don't cross any lines I can't come back from" or whatever it was, spoken by the lady who's done B&E, theft and fraud in the last couple of episodes and apparently doesn't consider that a "problem".
I know insurance investigators occasionally get a bit creative, but I don't think they have a "get out of jail free"-card for this sort of thing.
I liked that Neal at least brought up the thought of staying - I can't remember if he's actually said it out loud to Mozzie before?
And I hated that Moz burned Sally's phonenumber, though the perfect recall may help fix that.